Published in the magazine “Seven Arts” – October 2018

Pompeii also lived happily: people went to mess, sculpted sculptures, until one unhappy day ash fell on their heads. So maybe we should have paid attention to the first symptoms, to the signs of an approaching catastrophe?

Zoya Master

There's another picture tomorrow.

(Interview with writer, translator, screenwriter, playwright, poet, novelist Nina Voronel)

Z.M. – Nina, lately, I am increasingly recalling your essay “Credit Club”, thanks to which we met, and our first conversation. You said at that time that although there are people who are gifted in their profession among the Centigrades, there are two kinds of people in the field of public opinion: one is not intelligent enough to think and analyze, and the other is self-serving. Great people can think and stand out from the crowd.

As the years go by, given what's happening now, don't you think it's more complicated, more neglected and more disturbing?

Nina Voronel N.V. – Since this topic is today, it is still loose. History must settle and foam must settle. At first, only the foam that hides reality is visible. But I can’t help but admit that I am acutely aware of what is happening. I have been living for a long time and have seen different things; the losers are always a little annoying, quarreling, proving the opponent wrong. In presidential elections, there is always a fear of miscounting. For example, Bush Jr. won against Gore, and he resisted through the court, hoping to change the results. But I have never seen such a wave of hatred, and it was impossible to imagine such a wave. Recently, many channels showed a monstrous scene on ABC. Jeanine Pirro, a former FOX judge and author of the newly released book Liars, Leakers, and Liberals, has been featured on The View. And so, during this program, there was an unthinkable, shameful scandal between her and co-host, actress Whoopi Goldberg. This actress, old and ugly, did not give Jeanine the opportunity to say a word.

Whoopi Goldberg is only 62 years old.

N.V. - All the worse. She screamed and raged, spitting like a mentally ill person.

Z.M. – Whoopi Goldberg is one of those who is persistently trying (and not without success) to convince the audience that Trump suffers from a derangement syndrome.

N.V. Her form of discussion was to prevent the interlocutor from opening his mouth. So much so that the guest left the studio.

Z.M. But the most interesting thing was later, behind the scenes. As Pirro descended the stairs, a loud Whoopi waited at the bottom, who repeatedly demanded that she leave the studio building, teaching her unconventional vocabulary. Anyone can guess which word starts with f, especially since English is much poorer than Russian. The next day, Goldberg apologized to the audience, and the ABC producer called the guest and apologized. It turns out that you do not always have to wait until the foam settles, because it is clear that the one who has the loudest voice wins the short war. But who wins at a long distance, history will tell.

N.V. - Look, before actors no one considered people, and now Schwarzenegger, assessing the meeting between trump and Putin in Helsinki, said that he stood like a pasta.

First of all, why pasta? Raw pasta is just worth it, but boiled ...

- Nina, don't pick on me. He's not a writer, but a former governor-actor bodybuilder. Forgive him for the unfortunate metaphor. In addition, against the President — not only Schwarzenegger, and the whole of Hollywood. A lot of very, very famous actors have promised to leave the country if Trump wins. Among them is your “beloved” Whoopi, who, despite all promises, continues to sit safely in the ABC studio. The question is, is it worth paying attention to what Meryl Streep, Miley Cyrus or Rosie O’Donnell are saying? The only thing that is really disturbing is the incredible cohesion of the ranks of such Whoopi or Madonnas, albeit brilliant in their profession. But excellent students are just separated and even with like-minded people often do not find a common language.

N.V. It’s not just that one candidate beats another, it’s that the system is changing. Yes, Obama did not create the old one, but he and Hillary Clinton were its ardent defenders, and the system collapses because Trump broke all the rules of the game: he says what he thinks, and then keeps those promises. Like any other system, this one protects itself. Millions of people are connected with it: there is a threat of losing jobs, money. While the new system is still in the newborn state, they try to knock it down, because then it will be more difficult or even impossible. It has long been clear that whatever Trump did or did would be ridiculed and accused of something: incompetence, languagelessness, betrayal, racism, fascism, and so on. Their war is actually a defense. Protect the System.

The same thing is happening in Israel with regard to Benjamin Netanyahu. By the way, if you knew how shamelessly Americans interfered in our elections! No one was angry or crazy. And Netanyahu is being bitten on all sides, first, for not obeying Obama’s pressure; there is constant bullying. I remember Netanyahu’s opponent, Yitzhak Herzog, who had just returned from his meeting with Kerry, saying right at the airport, “I’m going to drop this and change the whole government, all politics.” There was no doubt who he had promised to change his policy. Of course, his words were not an official statement, but he did so with Kerry’s support. He got that promised support, and what? Even this did not help, because we have a people who understand who should and should not vote for.

Z.M. And the scandal with Netanyahu’s wife...

N.V. - It's so awful and embarrassing. They thought she was ordering dinners at home. But you have to understand that ministers, some officials are invited to dinner. Is she supposed to feed them schnitzels from the supermarket or stand by the stove herself? And for many years, such absurdities have arisen and stalled. And they will not find anything to find fault with so as not to just bite, but finally leave.

Z.M. Six years ago, your view of the future was rather pessimistic. You have said that the demise of civilization is a foregone conclusion, because things have ceased to be called by their proper names, and when the substitution of meaning is allowed, everything goes to dust. Salvation can come when words are right and actions are decisive.

N.V. - That's right.

Z.M. Well, we have such a leader. It is true that his words are not always correct, for he often says that he did not mean what he said yesterday, but that his actions are decisive. After Trump’s meeting with Putin in Helsinki, half of the country accused him of betraying national interests, the other half called him a winner, given his tactics toward Korea, Syria, Hamas, Mexico, China and the EU. Half the country considers him a patriot of America, its savior, the other half an idiot, a clown, an undereductee. And he?

N.V. - Excellent. No one knew or allowed such a person to appear. The fact that he was stronger than the System and won is a miracle, because by all rules, the System is stronger. And I don't believe the tale that he won because of Russian meddling. So, did you vote for Trump because you got caught up in Russian propaganda?

Z.M. - Absolutely! Just like our rednecks are farmers and cowboys from outback Colorado.

N.V. - The Russian trail is an excuse. And the same pretext is to defame Netanyahu by accusing his wife of handing over empty bottles and embezzling this, so to speak, proceeds into his pocket. Imagine the Prime Minister's wife! All the papers wrote about it. She was slandered, smeared with dirt, not lazy to describe in detail what kind of champagne the guests drank.

Z.M. - So she's a careful hostess - this is one. And her husband is an honest person: he does not steal, lives so modestly that the income from the delivery of bottles is not superfluous in the family budget.

And yet, why do you think Trump is an excellent student?

N.V. He promised to raise tariffs and return manufacturing to America. And he does. He said he would close the path of illegal emigration and close it. He promised tax reform and carried it out. Thanks to him, three American citizens who served time in a North Korean prison were returned to their homeland, as well as the remains of American soldiers who died during the Korean War. Many people considered his campaign promises a joke, a concussion, and it turned out to be serious. And now, beyond all logic, they say Trump is unpredictable. Why, actually? Because he's doing things they don't like? Is it because they couldn’t predict Hillary’s loss, or is it because Trump manages to do almost everything he promised his constituents? In my opinion, Trump is a remarkably strong and courageous man.

Z.M. And so the other day, once again, another idiot-vandal broke up a Trump star on the Walk of Fame in Hollywood. This time, a hoe, a baby. The revolutionary surrendered to police and was released on $20,000 bail. While the 24-year-old bully was working on the star, one witness asked why he was doing it and what Trump had done to him. He chose to remain silent and disappeared around the corner. Other witnesses began to urgently pick up fragments for souvenirs. The guy faces three years in prison, but since the city authorities are unanimously demanding that the star be removed from the Walk of Fame altogether, I think he will be declared sick to the fullest and simply obliged to pay damages. I assume that the star will really be removed, so as not to irritate her democratically minded admirers of Bill Cosby, a comedian, rapist and liar, whose star is located nearby.

N.V. Another irritant is the eternal Arab-Israeli conflict and Trump’s stance toward Israel. And here’s the “unpleasant surprise” – two adversaries, Putin and Trump, paid respect to Netanyahu, supported the Jewish state and promised to care about its security. When did that happen? And they don't want that.

Z.M. - Who are they?

N.V. This is the system and, above all, the liberal press. Their desire to overthrow the current undesirable but legitimately elected leaders, their pathological hatred is much stronger than common sense.

Z.M. I recently re-read The Jewish War and was struck by Joseph’s statement that justice was considered the first virtue among Jews from ancient times. The Jews can endure want and oppression, but they cannot tolerate injustice. And here in Israel, where, in theory, the most acute should be perceived injustice, an employee of the publication Jerusalem Report named Katz, posts on Instagram a caricature of the Prime Minister and his associates of the Likud party in the form of pigs. At the same time, an impressive number of journalists and ordinary citizens consider the act heroic. And in Manhattan, in June of this year, 5,000 people, Muslims and Jews, participated in a rally against Trump’s immigration policies. The event was co-ordinated by Linda Sarsour, an American daughter of Palestinian immigrants well known for her anti-Israel views, boycotts and calls for sanctions against Israel. And among the dozens of sponsors (and participants) of the event were “progressive” Jewish groups. Jews for Racial and Economic Justice and the Committee for Muslim-Jewish Solidarity. What happened to the first virtue, let alone common sense?

N.V. - It doesn't bother me. Jews are also different: conscientious, unscrupulous, monogamous, polygamous, crooks, saints. No matter what Trump or Netanyahu does or says, someone will tell you that they are shit.

Z.M. Do you see a way out of this darkness?

N.V. - Of course. Despite all the efforts of the press, the people vote for Netanyahu and Trump. The fact that our planes are bombed where and when they see fit is also a result of Netanyahu’s ability to negotiate with Putin and Trump. And here in his country, they want to destroy him. But the dog barks, the wind wears. Who stood there, who handed over the bottles - soap bubbles. The bubbles blow out, but they burst, because there is no content inside, and the picture will change.

Z.M. - I'd like that. After all, it happens that the abscess is not healed, does not dissolve, but goes into sepsis. And most importantly, a lot of people just don't care. They are equidistant observers. They do not think that anything will affect them or their loved ones.

N.V. Pompeii also lived happily: people went to mess, sculpted sculptures, until one unhappy day ash fell on their heads. So maybe we should have paid attention to the first symptoms, to the signs of an approaching catastrophe?

Z.M. - It's a rhetorical question.

Nina, maybe this is a clinic, and what I say will seem strange and pompous, but lately it seems to me that the main purpose of a person in this life is to overcome the fear for their children and themselves. The only thing left is to find an activity that helps to abstract. For some, it’s creativity, and it’s from here that I want to seamlessly move on to your just-released book, The Ex and the Ladies. Thank you for sending me one of the first copies. I was delighted to read this new novel, in which the characters of your previous books flash. Like Wagner and Bakunin.

N.V. Yes, but the book is not about them, or rather they are not the main ones. The novel is about a woman’s understanding of history, about three women connected by strange relationships. All three ladies, Lou Salome, Malvida von Meisenburg, Elizabeth Nietzsche, found themselves at the center of the revolving tornado of the cultural history of Europe of the second half of the 19th century. And around them were men with whom they connected their lives: Wagner, Herzen, Ogarev, Bakunin, Nietzsche. They're secondary characters.

Z.M. However, you wrote about Wagner in such detail that his presence in the book is inflated to the size of the main character: the story of his relationship (including intimate) with Louis of Bavaria, the story of how he betrayed Bakunin. But to this unpleasant person you have already dedicated the novel “Flight of a Butterfly” and the play “Little tightrope walker”.

N.V. There these stories are broken into fragments, and I could not deny myself the pleasure of putting them all together. Malvida, one of the three main characters, the translator of the German novel “Past and Dumas” by Herzen, the woman who raised his daughter Olga, the first reader of the early unrecognized works of Nietzsche and the inspirer of the young Romain Rolland, was also a long-term friend of the Wagner House. Richard Wagner became her idol when his music was booed and the reaction to his public appearances was the same as after the election of your Trump. Malvida, in those unfortunate years, recognized him as a genius. She communicated closely with people who left a mark in world history, with people completely different in spirit and beliefs. Not only did they open up to her, they loved her.

Malvida is an incorrigible idealist, but an adequate person, which cannot be said about Natalia Tuchkova, Kozima Wagner, Lou Salom, or Elizabeth Nietzsche. I’m not talking about revolutionary heroes. One gets the impression that in Europe of the second half of the last century, extraordinaryness and talent were synonymous with insanity and sexual promiscuity.

N.V. But it has always been so: talent and some form of insanity are linked. Wasn't Picasso a little crazy? Every artist who approaches genius sees or sees something that others cannot see. So something's broken in the brain, so they see the world differently, in their own way.

Z.M. – I note that Herzen and Ogarev were far from genius. Nevertheless, the way of their “family” life causes, to put it mildly, bewilderment. Although it is possible that Tuchkova was a muse for both, as for Wagner - Judith?

N.V. He needed sex drive, and Judith needed him to write Parsifal.

Z.M. A fiery revolutionary Bakunin to write Siegfried.

N.V. Wagner betrayed him not because he wanted to or planned to, but as a small man saving his own skin. He wasn't going to betray you, he just came to say goodbye.

Nina, your new novel is about people whose names have entered European history and culture. In order to write such a book, it was necessary to read a huge number of primary sources. For example, the diaries of Kozima Wagner, the confession of Bakunin. Where and when did you learn it and in what language?

N.V. There was a time in my life when I was conceived of this novel. Sasha (Alexander Voronel – husband, doctor of physical and mathematical sciences, scientist, dissident) was invited to Seattle, and in this city there was an amazing library. I ended up bringing home over two thousand copied pages. I read it all in English. In addition, a friend of mine, a composer who lives in Israel, gave me the 1912 editions of Wagner’s Russian diaries. And you mentioned Bakunin's confession. He wrote it sitting in the Peter and Paul Fortress. Wrote and sent to the king.

Z.M. - Well, who else? Look how history repeats itself.

N.V. - Bakunin wanted a pardon. In general, his activities are admired.

Z.M. With a negative sign, let me tell you.

NV: Look, he got out of prison and became the center of the political struggle.

Z.M. - Who exactly was he fighting?

N.V. - Including Marx. It is Marx who is everything, and Bakunin who is unknown. Then they were equal, two giants fighting for power in the name of socialism. Everyone was a leader. At a certain point, Bakunin approached a man named Nechaev. Do you know that name?

Z.M. - Terrorist.

N.V. Not just a terrorist, but the creator of a terrorist group. He was handsome and, using this, tried to seduce the eldest daughter of Herzen. If she had agreed to be his wife, he would have received Herzen's money for her. You can read all this in letters. It’s amazing how everyone loved writing letters at the time.

Z.M. Even terrorists and revolutionaries, which is the same thing, are a “high-moral” people, harsh, but at the same time, surprisingly weeping. You often hear the phrase, “He was quick to cry.” This applies to almost all male characters in the book, including Herzen. You'll cry when you live with your best friend's wife, a hysterical, spiteful woman, while posing as her husband's children.

N.V. - What do I do? He fell in love with this Natalia Tuchkova, who seduced him as best she could. And Malvida was just a governess with whom he slept, and in the end, he advised her to do as "heart tells her" because Tuchkova had a dead grip on him. Does that not happen among your friends?

Z.M. Unfortunately, there are no governesses in the homes of my friends. But fortunately, there are no revolutionaries, terrorists, neo-Nazis, or even fans of Wagner’s legacy. And yet, I am trying to understand what caused such weeping sentimentality in people who gave their energy, money, and life to build a “new world”? In general, in your novel, ladies look much more masculine than their “cavaliers”.

N.V. - That's right. It's a given. It's all on women's shoulders. You work with your granddaughters, you write books. Have you ever wondered when you spend time on yourself and just relax?

Z.M. - Yeah, someone asked. I replied that I was resting exclusively in the dentist’s chair.

N.V. - Excellent answer. I'm just saying that women are wiser and more resilient than men.

Z.M. In this age of political correctness, you can easily be accused of feminism. But we got away from it. How do you feel about Wagner’s music?

N.V. - She's awful to my taste. Although there are some wonderful fragments like "Flight of the Valkyries". When I decided to write about Wagner, I decided to listen to all his operas. At the Berlin Opera, tickets for Wagner’s operas are twice as expensive as for other performances.

Z.M. - They're twice as long...

N.V. Sasha and I sat surrounded by well-dressed elderly, as well as specifically dressed, with shaved heads, young people. Such a heterogeneous, poorly combined in appearance of the audience. But both listened with such reverence that it was impossible to move or whisper anything in their ears without catching indignant glances. And it went on forever, more than four hours, and it was unbearably boring. Content is incredible kitsch, music is endless recitatives that replace melody. Clearly not Verdi. But at the same time, the listeners were stunned with delight. I didn’t stop there: I picked up all the tapes of the operas, but I couldn’t listen to one until the middle. In my opinion, that's impossible. And then we went to Bayreuth. We arrived during the festival. We did not have tickets, they cost fantastic money. People who came to the festival, booked tickets to the theater and places in hotels for four years, and now, they say, it is necessary to take care of it in seven or eight years.

- Unbelievable. It would be interesting to see all this.

N.V. Wagner was not only a very talented composer, he was an innovator who invented a lot for the development of musical theater. However, not everyone loves his music. And his personality, like appearance, does not cause sympathy. Very small, red, crooked, but at the same time he was adored by women. As you know, his wife Kozyma, daughter of Ferenc Liszt, a woman of exceptionally tall stature, was married to conductor Hans Bülov. Then Wagner came to visit them, and she fell in love. There's a cartoon in Bayreuth: Cozyma sits at the piano, and she has Wagner on her lap, tiny as a child. And she loved him all her life.

Z.M. - How intertwined! Hans von Bülow was known not only as a conductor, but also as an outstanding pianist, who became the first performer of the First Tchaikovsky Concerto. This concert is dedicated to him. Imagine how easy it would have been to go from Wagner-Bülow-Kozyma to Peter Ilyich and then to Nadezhda von Meck.

N.V. - Yeah, it's all intertwined. I originally wanted to call the novel “European Lace.”

Z.M. In my opinion, the title “The Past and the Ladies” is more intriguing, and in general, it is more original. But I wanted to clarify: after reading the diaries of Wagner and his wife, you were able to unravel the reason for their rabid anti-Semitism? After all, it is known that Kozyma was as monstrous an anti-Semite as her adored husband.

N.V. I think this can be partly explained by the fact that Jewish blood flowed in the veins of both. Perhaps, by her attitude towards everything Jewish, Kozima tried to make sure that no one remembered her Jewish grandmother, the daughter of a banker, and, accordingly, her mother, who was half-Jewish. As for Wagner, the reason for his anti-Semitism may well have been the same. It is known that until the age of thirteen he bore the name of his stepfather - Geyer. In society, it was believed that this man was of Jewish origin and that Richard was his illegitimate son, not his stepson. In addition, there were rumors that Wagner’s mother came from a Jewish family that converted to Lutheranism. But there is no documentary evidence. What is really a fact is the support the Jews gave to Wagner. True, until a certain time. In fact, Wagner himself wrote that he owed Meyerber the production of The Flying Dutchman on the Berlin stage. And then he hated him, cursed him on every corner. Probably because I had to. In the same way, he hated Heine, Mendelssohn, his publisher Schlesinger, and many others who helped when the future great reformer was in distress.

Z.M. – Another heroine of the book, the sister of Friedrich Nietzsche, from the same breed of Judophobes, the muse of Nazism.

N.V. - That's right. It was thanks to her that Nietzsche remained in history.

Q. What, by your definition, is the genre of this novel?

N.V. This is a historical novel in artistic presentation. A novel-reconstruction, where the facts are documentary, and the presentation is artistic, which “adds air” to the text, and this is not my invention. It has long been said that it is impossible to write a truly new novel, since all the plots and themes are exhausted. In music, the situation is the same. It is hardly possible to compose a completely new, original, memorable melody, and current composers have no choice but to process existing ones.

Z.M. I don’t think they’re doing it consciously. Most likely, having already invented the theme, the composer realizes that it is not new. And don’t forget to “help” the computer. It is amusing to see one contemporary author suing another, accusing each other of plagiarism, when in fact, both inadvertently stole from one of the greats.

N.V. - It probably happens.

ZM: Nina, speaking of 20th-century women, were they as bright as the ones you chose in the heroine of the new novel?

N.V. I talk about my characters after more than a century, when it is already clear why their names remain in history. And who will be bright in another hundred years, it is difficult to predict. You know, there was such a famous actress of the theater "Habima", Hannah Rovina. She was dedicated to poems, painted her portraits. She was adored. When she became ill, newsletters about her health began to be posted on the theatrical tables. Then, when Slava Chaplin made a film about her, I asked the younger ones if they had heard her name. Turns out no, nobody knew. So she didn't survive her time. No one knows how long someone’s life will last in the memory of humanity. Only time will determine the degree of brightness, so to speak. Perhaps a bright mark will leave Margaret Thatcher. And they might forget. Or maybe there will be people like me who will dig up the rubble of history so that people will learn old, but new names for them.

Z.M. For some reason, I expected the name of Elena Bonner to sound in your answer. People write about her, especially after she leaves. Many reproach the negative impact on the career of Andrei Sakharov as a scientist, accused that his life was under the strict control of his wife.

N.V. - That's ridiculous! This family and I were very friendly. Lucia was indeed an accomplice to Andrei Dmitrievich’s human rights work.

Z.M. - Accomplice ... It tastes criminal.

N.V. First of all, she was his wife, and only then - an associate, actively participated in the political struggle. Then remember that she was half-Armenian and half-Jewish, and you can blow up tanks with this incendiary mixture.

Z.M. How did they meet and who led them into dissent?

N.V. There was a trial against Kuznetsov and Dymshits, who were sentenced to death for attempting to hijack an aircraft. A crowd of intellectuals gathered at the courthouse. It was terrible weather, wet snow fell. And people stood first on the ankle, then almost knee-deep in the water. It turned out that Andrei Dmitrievich was next to Lucia, who also came there. They met, they talked. Everyone went into dissidence on their own. Those who talk and write about Bonner’s iron character, about her “pressure” on Sakharov, did not know them, because the pressure on Sakharov is a utopia. Once, when he was interviewed, he said that he understood that he would not really save anyone, but would still continue to engage in human rights activities for his conscience. Answering your question, Zoya, why I did not mention the name of Elena Bonner, I will say this: she is indeed an extraordinary person, but it is unknown what she could have done herself, not being near Andrei Dmitrievich. When a woman marries a king, she becomes a queen. A bright personality is when you are yourself. Like Margaret Thatcher. Yes, she is known as Prime Minister, but she had to be Prime Minister. And look, when it was removed, everything went to hell. And still rolling...

Nina, do people change with age?

N.V. - Probably not. They develop, then wear out, and the degree of wear depends on what material they are made of. Over the years, they lose their memory, begin to repeat the same dogmas that were hardened in their youth. Change? Hardly. The basis remains. What do you think?

Z.M. I have always believed that an intelligent man grows wiser, and a stupid man reaches unprecedented heights or depths in stupidity. The saddest thing is when stupidity accompanies the aplomb acquired over the years. Of course, it happens that smart people become stupid, but I do not take into account the consequences of the disease. It's sad. What do you think of the so-called golden years?

N.V. There is little good in them, even less gold. It may seem from the outside that if you do not work, then you do not depend on anyone, do not please anyone, do not owe anything to anyone and therefore, this is it, happiness. But it's not. For example, you depend on a nurse, on those who help you, take care of you.

Z.M. - From children...

N.V. - Absolutely! If you are not only old and not particularly healthy, but also boring, grumpy, they will not come to you, or will, but extremely rarely and reluctantly. It's a legend that children regard us as old. There is one advantage: no one has to prove anything. Unfortunately, old age is the sadness of memories of how healthy, young, somewhere in a hurry, making plans and most importantly, no one was physically dependent. Why did you ask that question?

Z.M. - I'm thinking about it more and more.

Bernard Shaw was once asked how he felt about old age. He said, "It's bad to be old, but the alternative is worse."

Z.M. Why can you forgive people and why not forgive them?

N.V. - It's individual. Betrayal is probably not forgiven. But again, there is no general rule. I have met people who refused to even say hello just because fifty years ago this man had done something unsightly. But remember, we received a lot of abuse against us for the fact that in a previous interview I told about Sergei Khmelnitsky, and you wrote about it? We were almost cursed. Sasha and I forgave him even though he turned his friends over to the KGB. When Sasha worked in Berlin, we learned that Sergey lives there, and not far from us. We came, rang the doorbell. When his wife saw us, she almost fainted, because we almost broke up with curses on our lips. Years wash away a lot, but not everything. For example, I would never forgive Eichmann. Not so long ago, I was writing a novel about Sabine Spielrein (Secret of Sabine Spielrein), and I came to the conclusion that Hitler started a war with one goal - to exterminate the Jews. It is impossible to forgive the crimes of Nazism, but some personal, though painful, grievances are worth it.

Z.M. I cannot help but ask about Vladimir Voinovich. I found out about his departure after reading a message on the page of Viktor Shenderovich, even before the official news. You knew him personally. How do you remember him?

N.V. You know, despite his rare, amazing sense of humour, he was a mean man in his life. In the company of all amused not he, and Benedict Sarnov, who loved to perform and did it brilliantly. Once at the dacha near Moscow we walked the whole company: Sarnov, Voinovich, Iskander, and with us one woman from Kharkiv – she came to visit. And so, listening to Sarnov's stories, this woman exclaimed admiringly: "Oh, you're just like Raikin!" Ben said, "Am I like Raikin?" I'm sorry, but I'm much better.” He was a great storyteller and humorist. And Voinovich didn't spend money on the public. He saved his thoughts and jokes for future books.

Z.M. Have you started writing the second volume of the book, The Past and the Ladies? Do you write only novels because you like this genre or because novels are more popular than, for example, short prose?

N.V. - You're behind. Today, the demand for stories is huge, because modern man is not able to remember a novel with its many characters and storylines. He just needs a story format that fits in his head and is remembered. So you, Zoe, are trending.

Z.M. - I disagree. I'm just going with life, and I know that publishers release story collections with great reluctance, but novels - welcome. But if you think short prose is preferable to novels, why write them so hard?

N.V. Because I can only write plays and novels, and stories are not mine.

Z.M. - Nina, I will ask the incorrect question: with age you are drawn to give advice to children, grandchildren, the younger generation?

N.V. I used to like to give advice on various things. But for a long time, no one needs my advice, although my grandchildren sometimes consult me, which is joyful.

Question: Where can I buy your new novel?

N.V. Perhaps it is best to buy it from me by sending your exact address and check for $20 to N. Voronel Quadesh Barnea 3, apt 31 Tel-Aviv 6998603 Israel.

The book was published by a large Ukrainian publishing house, Folio, but today neither Russia nor Israel does business with Ukraine. I have 10 percent circulation, so I can send the book to anyone who wants to buy it.

- Thank you for talking. Good luck with your new book.

Denver, Colorado